Hi yall,
Lately SI/AI has been super strong. I've been thinking about the rules regarding live streaming/broadcast during rated rounds. I'm curious about the opinions of our cf community.
Context
- AI: Under the AI rule, we can't use any LLM help to write solution during a rated round. the tools are still there, but it targets the people.
- Streaming: AFAIK, streaming (including discussing solutions, sharing your thoughs) during a rated round counts as leaking solutions, so the rule is broken by the streamer. CMIIW.
The two rules take different approaches(?) One targets whoever uses the help, the other targets whoever provides it.
Arguments for allowing live streaming
- The streamer solves the problems honestly. The person breaking the rules is whoever trying to submit their solution during the rated rounds.
- AI already gives cheaters more help than a stream does...
- Everyone who copies from a stream will get caught anyway :/
- And my main argument: Live streams are valuable to people outside the contest: seeing how a strong coder thinks, learning from it, and discussing the problems together -- Or just cheering like one of those brainrot tiktok or youtube streams.
Arguments for keeping the ban
- Codeforces can't separate spectators from contestants...
- A stream shows code that has already been Accepted.. (and strong coders might still be way faster and smarter than AI)
- The streamer is public and easy to hold accountable, while viewers are anonymous. Restricting the source may be the only part that can be enforced... (Can't be helped)
- If live streaming is fine, the same logic would allow posting accepted code in a public group mid-round, which most people probably wouldn't want.. (and we're still fighting with this anyway)
Possible middle grounds
- Allow streaming with a delay. The hard part is the length. Anything shorter than the round still leaks solutions, and anything longer isn't really live.
- Allow streaming that hides the code. Viewers see the streamer's face and hear their thinking, but the code stays hidden until the round ends -- But this takes away the fun part.
- But anyway, competitive programming is like a sport anyway nowadays, those who cheats are basically just doing some performative showoff grandiose slopper yippie yappa thing that ruins the whole point of cp.
Thanks for reading. I'm interested to hear different perspectives.
Very cool blog and ideas. I feel inclined to say no on the basis that while it would be incredibly cool to watch some talented dude live solve, I think most people interested in cp would be in the round themselves rather than watching someone else solve the round and also, the same benefits could also be gained just as easily by streaming a mock contest. The one thing that I suppose could not be replicated is the reality of doing a live round but ultimately I feel it does not outweigh the integrity things. You make a very strong point about ai being a more accessible way to cheat admittedly. Something like IOI livestream with each solving would be fire though even if perhaps impractical.
well your "most people" definitely does not include me, personally i enjoy seeing people live solve a problemset.
The same case applies to why so many people watch game tournaments anyway
It seems my personal bias may have contaminated my response, I’ve never really thought about the wider community on this but me personally, I’ve watched like one recording of tourist solving stuff on YouTube and it didn’t seem all too interesting (perhaps because he is so far above my level rather than virtue of watching someone solve). It seems that others have different opinions that I didn’t consider.
There are reasons why GothamChess is more popular than magnus charlsen in chess
I would love to see many entertaining and fun or educational cp streamers growing to promote competitive programming
He's not though.
ok bad analogy, just pick a random chess guy from page 4 of the elo ranking and compare it to levy
anyway, you understand my point
You dont have to be in the leaderboard to be an entertainer
Integrity so brittle that you are more scared to people cheat rather than people having fun
why would anyone even watch a cf contest stream? there’s nothing interesting about it. you’re watching someone typing in an ide in silence
Maybe they explain their thoughts along the way, which is interesting for many people.
Although I think publishing the screencast after the contest would serve the same purpose without the downsides.
yes i agree screencasts serves same purpose
usually if someone has reserved power to also explain their solutions they’re not taking the contest seriously which removes anything exciting about watching a live performance
Even watching umnik screencasts where he just listens to music is quite fun, I usually skip to the parts where he gets a wa due to some weird bug and rages afterwards, its one of my hobbies.
Similarly, no one wants to watch a chess player plays chess in silence. So, why is GothamChess still famous? Because he explained his thought, make jokes. So I would say that cf contest stream would be interesting too if you make it interesting.
so people thought about chess at one point. Maybe just maybe it will be entertaining..
Any form of streaming that would be worth watching would also give away some information about problems, which is not desirable. I don't think there's a way to make streaming work for public rated rounds without ruining the viewing experience. Screencasts work fine, and if you really want to watch live there's contests like Blitz Cup.
You make a very good point. Actually, I've been thinking about this issue too. For people who need it, watching others' contest livestreams is also a good opportunity to broaden their thinking and train, just like watching others livestream games.
The main reason this isn't allowed is the potential cheating it brings, but the rise of AI makes cheating easy. Even more, current online contests' prevention of AI relies almost entirely on morals. Seen this way, allowing livestreaming seems like a fairly reasonable choice, because watching a livestream isn't even as convenient as AI.
Overall, I support allowing livestreaming.
What? (Wut?)
I mean, there's no need for a live stream for your main argument of "seeing how a strong coder thinks", people can just upload their screen recordings after the contest (and some do, like Um_nik). But it is true that it wouldn't matter if people streamed since AI can already solve everything.
another argument against: streamer might get help from chat (e.g. your bug is on line XYZ) — seems similar to the rule: You are forbidden from using AI to diagnose or resolve errors based on system feedback (e.g., after receiving a rejected verdict like "Runtime error on test 1" or similar, you are prohibited from asking AI-based systems to help you fix the issue).
So many times when I'm watching a video of someone doing a sudoku for example, I see something that they miss
i feel like with AI existing, anyone can cheat if they want to, and choosing to cheat by watching a streamer is literally less optimal than just prompting. but the counter argument is that some people feel very strongly against AI so they would never use it, especially since it's so shamed. but when there is a guy just streaming, they might feel tempted to just go into the stream and listen for a bit to get the idea or something like that. so it will probably never happen just because of that and that's probably for the better ngl.
Even if the situation is hopeless because AI, I don't think it's good to just throw your hands up and be like ok we'll just allow whatever. There's some moral loss there. We should at least maintain some level of decorum. Imagine being like we shouldn't care about people discussing solutions in CF blogs while the contest is running because well they could have used AI anyway. It just does not seem right. At that extreme you may as well give up on contests and transform into another problem bank judge.